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Tell Me No Lies: Investigative Journalism And Its Triumphs
with Ramona Koval
Sunday 05/12/2004
John Pilger
Tell Me No Lies: Investigative Journalism And Its Triumphs
Summary:
This week on Books & Writing ... what constitutes good investigative journalism? Ramona Koval talks to a man who triggers floods of vitriol every time he opens his mouth or puts pen to paper, and yet who commands respect around the world for his dogged forthrightness. John Pilger has just edited a collection of some of the most influential and courageous acts of journalism from the past century, titled Tell Me No Lies: Investigative Journalism And Its Triumphs ... from Martha Gellhorne's eyewitness report of the liberation of Dachau concentration camp and Wilfrid Burchett's reporting of the aftermath of the bombing of Hiroshima, through to civilian accounts of the reality on the ground in Iraq as the recent war unfolded. This is journalism that works to the dictum News is something someone somewhere doesn't want published - all the rest is advertising. (...)
Ramona Koval: It seems that much of the work that youve included has had to struggle to evade the restrictions of censorship; and self-censorship, of course, is perhaps even more insidious. And I noticed that you say Australia doesnt fare too well in the Reporters Without Borders index of press freedom, does it? Tell us where we come.
John Pilger: Fiftieth, and isnt that shaming?
Ramona Koval: Whos ahead of us, and whos behind us?
John Pilger: Well, almost everybody that counts themselves as being a democracy is way ahead of Australia. Australia is just ahead of autocracies and dictatorships.
Ramona Koval: And what are the parameters for coming to this index? I mean, what are we measuring?
John Pilger: I think what they measure is just what is covered in the Australian press and what is not covered. One of the stories that they looked at was the coverage of the detention centres for asylum seekers and how, for a very long time, right up to when the ABC reporter was arrested outside Woomera, there was no actual reporting of what was going on inside these centres, when in fact what journalists should have done was join the American security company that was running them and get inside and do an inside job.
Ramona Koval: Do a Gunter Wallraff.
John Pilger: Yes, exactly. Philip Knightly, whose work is in the book, said to me at the time rang me up, outraged, he said, Why dont they join this Wackenhut company and get inside, and tell us whats happening in there? And I actually said this to an ABC reporter a year or so later, and he said, Well, there is the problem of ethics, whether we have to reveal ourselves. What?
Ramona Koval: Gunter Wallraff we should say to people who havent read his work, used to disguise himself in many different areas, and for his very famous book Ganz UntenThe Lowest of the Lowhe even got brown irises manufactured to put into his eyes so he could pass as a Turkish guest worker.
John Pilger: Yes, he did. Im not sure I would do any of that, but he is an amazing character and he worked in the engine room of the German economic miracle, right down at the bottom of it where all those people were working in places where Germans really could never imagine, where the working conditions were horrific, where it was filthy and dark, and people lived in dormitories. The story of guest workers, really, all over the world. He disguised himself as a Turkish worker and came out with exposés that had an extraordinary effect. He had the law changed in states in Germany. He had to weather umpteen libel actions brought against him by the great corporations, but by and large he pulled it off. I think hes credited with really alerting the whole nation to just where their prosperity was coming from and who was really providing it for them.
Ramona Koval: So when you had that conversation with somebody who said, Well, what about the ethics of it? and you laughed there is an ethical issue about how one presents oneself. There is an issue about the public interest, and there is a line to cross or a line to navigate. I mean, how does one navigate that?
John Pilger: Oh I dont think theres even a principle. Its completely manufactured nonsense to say theres ethical the prima facie case was made of what was happening inside these detention centres. There were horrific things happening, we all know that now, horrific things. Its a journalists job to go and find that out. And who are the ethics going to benefit, this ethics of not going under cover? Well, I just dont even think theres a principle there. I mean, it must be a different form of ethics. I dont understand that one, sorry. (...)
Find this fascinating interview at: Books and Writings with Ramona Koval (ABC)
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/arts/bwriting/stories/s1253799.htm
Sunday 05/12/2004
John Pilger
Tell Me No Lies: Investigative Journalism And Its Triumphs
Summary:
This week on Books & Writing ... what constitutes good investigative journalism? Ramona Koval talks to a man who triggers floods of vitriol every time he opens his mouth or puts pen to paper, and yet who commands respect around the world for his dogged forthrightness. John Pilger has just edited a collection of some of the most influential and courageous acts of journalism from the past century, titled Tell Me No Lies: Investigative Journalism And Its Triumphs ... from Martha Gellhorne's eyewitness report of the liberation of Dachau concentration camp and Wilfrid Burchett's reporting of the aftermath of the bombing of Hiroshima, through to civilian accounts of the reality on the ground in Iraq as the recent war unfolded. This is journalism that works to the dictum News is something someone somewhere doesn't want published - all the rest is advertising. (...)
Ramona Koval: It seems that much of the work that youve included has had to struggle to evade the restrictions of censorship; and self-censorship, of course, is perhaps even more insidious. And I noticed that you say Australia doesnt fare too well in the Reporters Without Borders index of press freedom, does it? Tell us where we come.
John Pilger: Fiftieth, and isnt that shaming?
Ramona Koval: Whos ahead of us, and whos behind us?
John Pilger: Well, almost everybody that counts themselves as being a democracy is way ahead of Australia. Australia is just ahead of autocracies and dictatorships.
Ramona Koval: And what are the parameters for coming to this index? I mean, what are we measuring?
John Pilger: I think what they measure is just what is covered in the Australian press and what is not covered. One of the stories that they looked at was the coverage of the detention centres for asylum seekers and how, for a very long time, right up to when the ABC reporter was arrested outside Woomera, there was no actual reporting of what was going on inside these centres, when in fact what journalists should have done was join the American security company that was running them and get inside and do an inside job.
Ramona Koval: Do a Gunter Wallraff.
John Pilger: Yes, exactly. Philip Knightly, whose work is in the book, said to me at the time rang me up, outraged, he said, Why dont they join this Wackenhut company and get inside, and tell us whats happening in there? And I actually said this to an ABC reporter a year or so later, and he said, Well, there is the problem of ethics, whether we have to reveal ourselves. What?
Ramona Koval: Gunter Wallraff we should say to people who havent read his work, used to disguise himself in many different areas, and for his very famous book Ganz UntenThe Lowest of the Lowhe even got brown irises manufactured to put into his eyes so he could pass as a Turkish guest worker.
John Pilger: Yes, he did. Im not sure I would do any of that, but he is an amazing character and he worked in the engine room of the German economic miracle, right down at the bottom of it where all those people were working in places where Germans really could never imagine, where the working conditions were horrific, where it was filthy and dark, and people lived in dormitories. The story of guest workers, really, all over the world. He disguised himself as a Turkish worker and came out with exposés that had an extraordinary effect. He had the law changed in states in Germany. He had to weather umpteen libel actions brought against him by the great corporations, but by and large he pulled it off. I think hes credited with really alerting the whole nation to just where their prosperity was coming from and who was really providing it for them.
Ramona Koval: So when you had that conversation with somebody who said, Well, what about the ethics of it? and you laughed there is an ethical issue about how one presents oneself. There is an issue about the public interest, and there is a line to cross or a line to navigate. I mean, how does one navigate that?
John Pilger: Oh I dont think theres even a principle. Its completely manufactured nonsense to say theres ethical the prima facie case was made of what was happening inside these detention centres. There were horrific things happening, we all know that now, horrific things. Its a journalists job to go and find that out. And who are the ethics going to benefit, this ethics of not going under cover? Well, I just dont even think theres a principle there. I mean, it must be a different form of ethics. I dont understand that one, sorry. (...)
Find this fascinating interview at: Books and Writings with Ramona Koval (ABC)
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/arts/bwriting/stories/s1253799.htm
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